| The Land of Avalon is a freeform medieval/fantasy roleplaying site loosely based on Arthurian lore. Avalon is home to many friendly members, administrators, and position holders, most of whom are always willing to RP, no matter how new a person might be to the site. With a large shop system full of various spells, items, and equipment no two characters are the same. With character races ranging from elves and humans to dragons, chimeras, and demons Avalon welcomes a wide range of races and RP skill levels. From the Northern Lands holding word limits suited for beginners to the West for the more advanced, no one is too inexperienced to join in on the fun. With a variety of deities and elemental guardians, kings and nobility to pledge to (or oppose) there is no shortage of roleplaying opportunity. Avalon is full of great members and staff with a great sense of humor, friendly welcomes, and a love for roleplaying. Avalon invites you to experience the magic, today! |
| Specialization shops | |
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| Topic Started: Jan 15 2009, 08:10 PM (612 Views) | |
| Cassandra | Jan 15 2009, 08:10 PM Post #1 |
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From what I've seen, Avalon's members seem to be composed mostly of spellswords by a large majority. This is likely due to the fact that there are very few reasons for choosing to specialise in one area. The fighter abilities are lackluster compared to most of the spells, and even then the user of them is still capable of gaining spells. In addition, I'm not sure about what exactly it's meant to be, but characters like the guardians seem like the types who should have specialised in their chosen element. But from what I heard from Carter, none of them have specialised in that element. What I'm suggesting is something along the lines of a shop that acts similarly to how fighter abilities do, but with a greater restriction and greater magnitudes. Those who buy abilties out of it are incapable of possessing any spells whatsoever. In addition, those who buy the elemental spells from it are unable to purchase spells of any other element. This may seem appealing enough that it could potentially cut down the enourmous majority of spellswords that seem to reside in Avalon, and their might be an actual advantage for focusing upon a specific element. ’The quick brown fox jumps over the lazy dog.’ |
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| Dark Manus | Jan 15 2009, 10:14 PM Post #2 |
Afraid of the dark? Wait until you see what the light can do…
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As much as I am for "Specialization" (Attempting to be just a mage type). I find the idea of forcing someone to focus on one particular element a bit harsh. Avalon is meant to be fun and free and thus comes the choices to focus on one thing or expand. There are also the fact that many people may not know exactly what they want, and will dip their hands in a little bit of everything before trying to take up one specific ability. So Spellswords, although abundant, are not necessarily a bad thing, they're just playing what they would "want" their fantasy selves to be. Now on another note. I would like to see more spells or even abilities that may require some sacrifice, mostly for those who want a challenge or are more understanding of what they want. An example is the "Guardian Angel" Holy spell and how if you even have one Dark spell you cannot obtain it, or how if you have even one psychic spell, you can't have Psychic Shield. The same could go for say if you want a more powerful Water based spell such as "Tidal Wave", but then you can't have any Earth based spells in your inventory. As you can see I'm not saying limit the entire category, but restrict the more powerful spells for those who put forth the effort ;D So this could turn into an interesting idea. |
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| Cassandra | Jan 15 2009, 10:22 PM Post #3 |
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That's essentially what I was proposing on the elemental front. Leave the shops as they are at the moment, but have a seperate one with more powerful abilities for those who wish to specialise in that area. They can still do whatever they want with what's already available at the moment. Perhaps something along the lines of that the purchase of each greater elemental power blocks off a specific element, and when all of them are possessed for an element, the user is left with only that particular element at their disposal. It would be less limiting to begin with, but as their ability in that sector grows, they would be left with less and less ability to branch into other sectors, but would have more power in their chosen element. Also, it also seems that I forgot to incorperate some reasons to play a pure caster over a spellsword, but I'm not sure about how to implement that. Barring the purchase of a weapon for more powerful spells makes no sense at all, and would leave the martial artist casters untouched. Any suggestions in this direction would be appreciated. Edited by Cassandra, Jan 15 2009, 10:31 PM.
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Summon Sandwich Gives the caster the ability to summon a single sandwich with any filling. (From Den) | |
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| BlueDragon | Jan 16 2009, 12:37 AM Post #4 |
Owned by Sel.
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I think this would put an efficient stop to my plans of owning all spells in the shops -.- Other than that, this is actually an interesting idea, put this way. |
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| LJ | Jan 16 2009, 01:44 AM Post #5 |
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Seems all right. Though I would probably prefer to do it in a similar way to the magical schools of DnD if I were going to implement something like this. I guess I can do both. Anyway, there are a bunch of changes lined up already, so something like this may be added in with the rest of them. |
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| Hurzal Myarn Teken'urden | Jan 16 2009, 02:05 AM Post #6 |
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I know my opinion isn't much, but I'm not to thrilled at the prospect of severely limiting what a person could purchase by the spells they buy. If you wish to buy Tidal Wave you must rid yourself of Earth spells? What about lightning spells? Or Fire? All could have an equally destructive prospect on the caster, but we don't limit it. I believe mixing them could be bad, but to force people into categories like "Earth Specialist" against their creative will, and for the sake of one spell, seems a bit stifling. You can't have Tidal Wave if you own Fireball? Or Meteor Storm if you have Shocking Grasp or Wind Arrow? I just disagree with this, if a person wants to be an Elemental Caster, they can create one, if not, and they have the money for a spell, why stop them? |
 "...today you can hardly mention the drow in the presence of gamers without sparking an argument. Some players love playing drow characters, while other players won't play in a game that allows drow PCs. Some GMs love the concept of "renegade" drow who have turned against their sinful ways to become champions of good, while others gag and gnash their teeth over the very concept. Even the name riles up gamers-there are at least two ways to pronounce the word, and I wouldn't put it past someone to come up with a third and a forth. No matter how vocal people get about drow, the fact remains that everyone knows them and everyone talks about them." | |
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| LJ | Jan 16 2009, 02:09 AM Post #7 |
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I'm pretty much just thinking of new spells. One or two existing ones may end up being recategorised, though. The general idea is that if you spend all your time learning one thing, you'll be better at it that someone who tries to learn a bit of everything. The suggestion also says that there are degrees of specialisation, which would mean that your limitation is directly proportional to how many of the as-yet nonexistant 'higher tier' spells you have. |
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| Hurzal Myarn Teken'urden | Jan 16 2009, 02:18 AM Post #8 |
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Specialization is good, I agree, but a lot of people don't want to specialize, or need to. I just feel like reducing what a character can have is stifling, though it does make them think a lot harder on their spell decisions. All I can say is I see both the pros and cons, like everyone else can, but I'm asking, does the Pros out way the Cons? |
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"...today you can hardly mention the drow in the presence of gamers without sparking an argument. Some players love playing drow characters, while other players won't play in a game that allows drow PCs. Some GMs love the concept of "renegade" drow who have turned against their sinful ways to become champions of good, while others gag and gnash their teeth over the very concept. Even the name riles up gamers-there are at least two ways to pronounce the word, and I wouldn't put it past someone to come up with a third and a forth. No matter how vocal people get about drow, the fact remains that everyone knows them and everyone talks about them." | |
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| LJ | Jan 16 2009, 02:20 AM Post #9 |
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I've not talked about reducing anything, except in perhaps one or two specific cases. For the most part, this would just provide more choices on top of the existing selection, for those who choose to specialise. |
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| Rurouni | Jan 16 2009, 02:59 AM Post #10 |
Katsujin-ken satsujin-to...
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I like it. It would add a nice new element to the spell system. I'm in class at the moment so I can't really elaborate on my thoughts, but I don't have many of them right now anyway xD so I'll pop in later when I've had more of a chance to think about my two cents. |
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I met a traveller from an antique land Who said: Two vast and trunkless legs of stone Stand in the desert. Near them on the sand, Half sunk, a shatter'd visage lies, whose frown And wrinkled lip and sneer of cold command Tell that its sculptor well those passions read Which yet survive, stamp'd on these lifeless things, The hand that mock'd them and the heart that fed.   And on the pedestal these words appear: "My name is Ozymandias, king of kings: Look on my works, ye Mighty, and despair!" Nothing beside remains: round the decay Of that colossal wreck, boundless and bare, The lone and level sands stretch far away. | |
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| Ant | Jan 16 2009, 03:51 AM Post #11 |
Let's not make an ass out of 'u' and 'me'.
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Specialization is grand if someone wants to specialize. Otherwise it's just a kick in the face to others; and even in a certain incarnation, is likely to lose more than a few potential members down the road. In either case, what about elements which are linked. Ice falls under water for example. And lightning under air. |
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ψ Character ψ Inventory ψ "Never take life seriously. Nobody gets out alive anyway." 
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| LJ | Jan 16 2009, 05:34 AM Post #12 |
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Generalisation is a speciality in itself. You lose some of the more focused abilities in certain disciplines, but you have access to a massive variety of other attacks that specialists would lose out on. So it's hardly a 'kick in the face', only a simple choice - don't forget that specialists would lose some things to; probably much more than generalists. It's the same in plenty of other games. There's the obvious DnD example, where generalists don't get to learn as many spells and specialists, but also don't have to forfeit entire schools of magic just for a bit extra in a certain field. Then you've got the Final Fantasy comparison with Red Mages; they aren't permitted to use the more powerful spells from either field, but they do get the benefit of choosing from either Black or White magic as their needs dictate, giving them many more options. Additionally, you've already got an exapmle of this here in the Fighter Abilities. You get access to certain unique abilities (Usually Shelter, more are being formulated) in order to pursue your chosen path more effectively at the cost of general versatility. You also have spells such as Banish and Psychic Sheid, which again limit your choices. I've never had any complaints about either of those; it particularly helps to cull the number of ultra-powered player characters who are proficient at everything and vulnerable to nothing, who break the game. Clearly, either choice has its obvious benefits. However, it's a question of balance, like I said. Someone who dedicates their time to a single aspect of magic over the others is going to have more practice at it, and therefore better at it than a person who split that time between several or all elements or disciplines. It's just like in life. Additionally, something like this enhances the aspect of strategy in ability selection, which is interesting in itself for some people. Mostly, it goes a way to preventing characters who are just ultimately powerful at everything, which is just laughable, and boring for the rest of the population. People like that have scared plenty of members - who prefer the subtler side of roleplay - away from the site in the past. If we can scare a few of those power-gamers away, then good.  As for your other point, I'm not really too into the idea of Elements in general; as I said, I would prefer to classify spells differently, but I'm not averse to using both. In that case I would probably just stick Ice with water and Lightning together with non-elemental under the heading 'Aether' to have a grand total of seven. In those places there might be some sort of option for further specialisation in those psuedo-elements. |
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| Denthúl | Jan 16 2009, 06:35 AM Post #13 |
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I like this idea and it would definitely make for better ability selection. Or, rather, more interesting ability selection. I'm also fond of the idea of it being more difficult for everyone to be excessively good at close combat and expert wizardry. 
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| Sir | Jan 16 2009, 07:08 AM Post #14 |
The Dead One
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Personally, I agree with both. I think. Avalon has always been such a free place. Those people that want an uber-powerful character have always been able to just go ahead and make one (they just have to find out the hard way that not everyone wants to RP with very unrealistic super-characters). Just because some other medieval/fantasy settings (games, RPGs, whatever) use magic systems, does not mean that we have to. Some sites do not even have shops, that does not mean we should get rid of our shops. So, I feel a little iffy about putting up millions of exceptions and limitations, that would confuse some people, put some off and satisfy a few. That does not mean I agree that it is fair that people make unrealistic super-characters who are specialised in everything. That would be one good thing about having such a system, it would perhaps stop some from making powerful characters. What I like is what LJ has mentioned so far (if I have understood correctly): having 'more choices on top of existing selection' (spell levels). To 'scare away' some power-hungry character creators we could always add a section to our power-playing rule about magic users. Something that brings out the pros and cons of generalising and specialising, and how there should not be any characters who are specialised in everything. We could also consider putting spell limits to some of the more powerful spells instead of stopping people from buying certain types of spells (like if you have this powerful water spell you can't have any of blah-spells). For example, if you by "Blah-Spell" you can only have X amount of spells in your spellbook. That would definitely stop people from being too specialised and powerful. OR with a spell level system (!!!) we could say that if you want to buy "Blah-Spell Level 3" you can only have X amount of Level 3 spells, or whatever, that would make it more fair and less dictatorial. That would mean that people could have lots of lower level spells or a few higher level spells. Or has someone already suggested that? |
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| Ant | Jan 16 2009, 08:06 AM Post #15 |
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Let's not make an ass out of 'u' and 'me'.
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So Lightning would go under non-elemental Aether (or Spirit, which is basically Light and Dark). That doesn't make much sense... but okay. And how would this work retroactively on people who already have plenty of crap. Just going to tell them to suck it up or what? Refunds? What if they don't wish to simply give up spells you re-order into the specialization category. On another side of the issue, many people tend to pick and choose certain spells from every category to fit with what their character(s) do(es). As well, you then have General Magic. Will choosing to specialize in a certain Elemental skill disqualify you from several other magical abilities. Will General Magic be split into sub-categories as well, similar to Elemental. (For example, we have Fire, Earth, Water, Ice, Air, Lightning, Dark, and Light; will we then have things like Alteration [polymorph, polymorph other, etcetera], Conjuration [phantom blades, Gate].) This then brings up into even -further- sub-categories. For example, someone who chooses to be Conjurer should have an availability of several summoning spells of any number of creatures, but, a Necromancer would not make sense to be able to summon an Archon or some such, and would then have to be disqualified from being able to touch certain Conjurer spells in return for things like Skeletons, Zombies, Bone Golems and any other number of crap. Or, would something like Necromancy be concluded all on its own, and things like 'Conjuration' and 'Alteration' just be sort of sub-categories under a "style" of magic. But then, what would Necromancy have to make it unique beyond the undead. Curse spells, offensive spells. If you specialize in Necromancy, would you be allowed to use Dark Elemental as well, or would it be something else entirely? Would you have to create new offensive spells, etcetera? Specialization gets pretty complex, because you can't pick and choose certain spell groups and exclude others, because there are so many styles of classes and combinations everyone is going to see, in that case, some other style of player get cool things and they don't if you don't create several categories. This entire idea would rehaul the Magic Shops completely. It would have to. And while I'm on it, what about Fighter Abilities? Specializations within that? What if someone wants to play a Berserk style character, should they gain certain abilities coincided with it. Or a mage-hunter warrior. Shelter fits well, but it wouldn't make sense for them to use several of the other abilities; but to have their own set to help them in their chosen occupation. It's a great idea, I just want to make it very clear. You can't half-ass this, or it's not going to work at all. |
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